Talk:Sports club

Untitled

Please note AS roma it is not a Sports Club, but they play only football (or soccer as you prefer).

Maybe you confuse the Virtus Roma with the AS roma. Bye —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.227.1.2 (talk) 11:02, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Is there any proof that Fernerbache have 25 million supporters? I have read this figure on many website but don’t have any luck finding any actual proof.

Also, what constitutes a ‘supporter’ in this estimate, somebody who claims to follow the club but hasn’t actually ever seen them play (fair-weather supporters) or actual dyed-in-the-wool supporters (highly unlikely)?

Greek Clubs

Ok folks, thanks to JzG for semi-protecting this page. Now, can the two of you calmly discuss the two teams (yes, even I, an american, know the rivalries between Greek sports clubs, as well as the fatal incident recently), with Reliable Sources to back up your information? If it helps, talk to me instead of the other person. Convince ME. SirFozzie 21:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

That was open vandalism!

1) Panathinaikos play at UEFA Cup (as the 3rd team of the Greek League). Both this year and the coming one as well! Is this a fact that can be disputed? Check the UEFA site!

2) Olympiacos have 69 national honors in football. Panathinaikos and Aek have 68 together. Just check the corresponding articles. I mentioned it because the very well known fact to all Greeks, that Olympiacos dominates this sport in Greece, was argued. Only in the last 11 years Olympiacos have won 10 championships.

Are there any clearer and more obvious citations than the UEFA site and the clubs' articles?

The reasoning of the "Sports club" article is to promote each clubs' acheivements, not to distort the facts!

3) He metnions Panathinaikos' 492 honours overall (all years from 1908, all divisions). This estimation comes from a Greek sports newspaper which openly supports Panathinaikos (called "the Green" ("The Green Newspaper" is implied)). This figure was respected by me, even though a citation is needed. In contrast the 69 football honors of Olympiacos in football were being consistently erased although it is an undisputed fact with given dates (see the club's article and www.epo.gr the Greek football assocation's site). 212.251.110.173 22:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Can you give me links to the articles? (preferably in English). Also, the reason for the semi-protection of the page, and both clubs being removed is that Wikipedia has a rule known as the 3 Revert Rule, which limits editors to 3 reverts within any 24 hour period. Needless to say, both of you grossly violated that. Let's rebuild the section with references, and not fight out rivalries here, ok? SirFozzie 23:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I completely understand the rules and you did what it had to be done.

References:

This year's final standings of Greek League in English by the Greek football association (EPO): http://www.epo.gr/detail_uk.asp?e_article_id=10506&e_article_cat_id=15:

Panathinaikos is 3rd with the UC (UEFA Cup in the right column). And it's the second consecutve year that they play UEFA Cup.

Olympiacos official national honors (i.e.: championships, cups and doubles): 69: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympiacos#Football_Club_Honours

Panathinaikos official national honors (i.e.: championships, cups and doubles): 42 (I even include 1 more than their article)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panathinaikos#Football

Aek official national honors (i.e.: championships, cups and doubles): 26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AEK_Athens_FC#National_titles

which makes Olympiacos: 69, Panathinaikos+Aek: 68.

If you dont count the doubles: Olympiacos: 57, Panathinaikos+Aek: 48.

212.251.110.173 23:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Great. That's exactly what I need, so we can build a section. Now, can we build a section for Olympiacos (I always saw it spelled Olympiakos, but maybe I mis-remembered it).. that works on that WITHOUT referring to Panathanikos/AEK and we can have a section for it in the notable clubs part of the article. That way, we can have both of your concerns alleviated. You get to write the section the way it should be, but it's encyclopedic and not continuous warring between rival fans? (BTW, I am a footy fan myself, I have a season ticket to my local American side (New England Revolution, so that's what made me take a look at this article on recent changes patrol :D) SirFozzie 23:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

It's a surprise you know the Greek teams :-) About the spelling, both ways (c or k) are fine. I'll post my suggestion here, tomorrow (it's late enough already). Cheers mate.212.251.110.173 23:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

1) I play Football Manager 2007, and 2)for a while, Setanta Sports was showing Greek games here in the US (they're a pay channel available on satellite dish here. Glad to hear! Have a goodnight SirFozzie 01:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

There is just one indirect comparison. There you go:

Olympiacos CFP from Piraeus, Greece, is one of the largest multisport clubs in Europe and the most popular in Greece. It develops activities in 17 different competitive departments, including football, all of which are prominent and have won many distinctions around the world. The total number of athletes of Olympiacos is more than 3,800, the ranks of which include Olympic winners and World Champions. The club boasts European and international titles in football, basketball (Olympiacos BC), volleyball (Olympiakos SC), waterpolo and athletics. The following outstanding statistics illustrate the club’s domination in Greek football: Olympiacos FC have won 10 championships in the last 11 seasons, 35 championships out of the total of 71 which were ever conducted in Greece and 69 national honors while their main rivals together only have 68. Olympiacos have more honors than any other Greek team in volleyball and waterpolo as well (men’s divisions). In addition, fans point out as remarkable the fact that Olympiacos is the only Greek sports club to have done the Triple Crown in two different sports, i.e. basketball and waterpolo. 212.251.110.173 18:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Great! I'll add it (or something close to it) to the article. That last sentence is kinda weak, can we provide a reliable source to it (a citation, maybe?) SirFozzie 18:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I edited it slightly (between RS and WP:NPOV there was a bit of bother with sections), there are folks who will strip statements without cites, I'm trying to make it "un-removeable" so we don't have to fight the wars again. What do you think? :) SirFozzie 18:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I trust you mate :-) 212.251.110.173 19:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I made a mistake: 69-68 is correct, 57-48 is not, sorry about this. I corrected it. As for the final phrase it is correct, but I don't think I can find an explicit reference, one will have to check the stats. However, there is no other Greek team ever acieved a Triple Crown. Panathinaikos might do it in basketball this year for their first time, but we'll have to wait for the league to finish. So it's absolutely true, even that other guy did not erase this final phrase, imagine that! :-) 212.251.110.173 19:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

You can add instead: "In addition, fans point out as remarkable the fact that Olympiacos have achieved a Triple Crown in two different sports, i.e. basketball and waterpolo." For this, there are references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympiacos#Olympiacos_Water_Polo_Club and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympiacos#Football_Club_Honours.212.251.110.173 19:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

There we go. Rather then Say "Fans point out as remarkable" (which would beg the question "Which fans and why do they find it remarkable", I have just stated flat out that Olympiacos have achieved the triple crown in basketball, and water polo. How's that? SirFozzie 19:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Great. Thanks for helping out man.212.251.110.173 19:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

No problem! That's what we do around here. SirFozzie 19:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

One last thing. Isn't this reference enough for retaining the sentence that it is the most popular club? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popularity_of_Greek_teams 212.251.110.173 20:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

There we go! Exactly what we need. I just added a quick link, but I'll add the cites to it when I have a free moment (currently scheduled for some time in 2013 ;)) SirFozzie 20:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

:-) 212.251.110.173 20:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

SirFozzie perhaps you should know better and first check each team honours on their respective pages instead of believing everything you read on this talk page from anonymous posters? I'm obviously putting Panathinaikos back in the list.--   Avg    21:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I was not making the war alone. The other user was repeatidely doing the exact same thing. The difference is that all numbers mentioned by my version are absolutely true and referenced. You are obviously biased and you are the one who's forcing your opinion. Please do answer how is the 10 out of 11 chanmpionships wrong (who got the championships from 1997 to 2007 apart from 2004), how these gallup polls are wrong and whether Panathinaikos is playing at UCL as the other user insisting on writing! So what exactly SirFozzie believed that shouldn't have???212.251.110.173 22:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, let's not drag back into the edit war here. Assuming good faith is important. I have to go soon (doctor's appointment, I screwed up my shoulder), but I will continue to monitor the article

What goof faith?! They don't like the facts so they erase them (10 out of 11 champioships 1997-2007 and popularities) or they distort them (Panathinaikos is playing at Champions League)! This is rediculous! Btw, good luck with the doc212.251.110.173 22:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I've placed 3RR warnings to your and the other user's talk pages. I sincerely hope you do refrain from entering an edit war since the only thing you will succeed is to get banned. There's also no need to detail the titles and achievements here, only a short summary of 5 lines max. This is why each team has its own page. About the popularity article, you can check its history page and see who has contributed most of it so don't accuse me of being biased.--   Avg    23:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

You now say details are not important. First you said SirFozzie should first check the honors. So you checked that the numbers provided were correct but decided they are not important? If they are not correct, which part was not correct? And if details are not important, how come a disputed, unreferenced estimation (492) remains, and perfectly correct, referenced numbers are erased? you are not biased! noooooo... As for the gallup article, I dont know who contributed it. The question is if you dispute that these gallups were correctly copied. Of course you don't because some of them are still online and can be accessed from the reference. One of the gallups is even from "Derby Sports"! I guess you know it! So you honestly havent ever heard that Olympiacos is the most popular team in Greece??? I am not going to go on with the revert war especially because the situation is obvious. You are the registered user of the website, so you should be more careful with its use. 212.251.110.173 23:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Well let me explain you the obvious. This is a generic article about sports clubs, nobody cares what are the specific achievements of any team. This is why details are not important. And moreover, if you have to put a figure you'll put a figure which refers to the club as a whole. This is why the total number of Olympiacos athletes remains. This is why the total number of Panathinaikos titles remains. This is why no figure in specific sports should remain. About the popularity article, if you'd bother to check you'd see that I have put the references myself, even for Derby sports, so how could I dispute them? Duh. And anyway, you know registration is only a click away. Registering gives you a little more credibility in the eyes of wikipedians. --   Avg    00:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Let me point out the even more obvious: You changed arguments! First it was wrong, now it's details. Well it's not details because the 10 out of 11 statistic is outstanding. In any case, the 492 figure is unreferenced! It is an estimation by a sports newspaper which supports Panathinaikos ("I Prasini"). It may still be correct, but you need a citation. There is a similar estimation by a newspaper which supports Olympiacos ("Protathlitis") which brings Olympiacos' honors up to 527. I did not include it because I considered it not credible. Popularity is details as well? I'll definately sign up!212.251.110.173 08:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I really won't get into an argument. I know what you're trying to achieve is to show some kind of "superiority" of Olympiacos against Panathinaikos. This will not happen (and of course the opposite will not happen too), because this is not the point of the article. In fact, the number 492 for the Panathinaikos titles has been removed and the number 3800 for the Olympiacos athletes has been removed as well until a source that satisfies Wikipedia:Verifiability is found. --   Avg    16:33, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I replied with numbers which were referenced to: one claim which was false ("Panathinaikos play Champions League") and two that are doubted and/or not referenced ("Panathaikos: 492 honors overall" in combination with some other much smaller number for Olympiacos). That was an attempt to present some fake superiority and I replied with referenced facts and numbers to defend. I totally respected all real numbers like the fact that Panathinaikos is larger in terms of number of Departments. Obviously Olympiacos is superior in some domains and Panathinaikos in others. In my opinion, your changes are fine now. Apseven 11:05, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Panathinaikos is the biggest Greek athletic club in terms of number of departments and overall titles (which are confirmed by the "Greek General Secretariat for Sports" and most of them are mentioned on their website, although it's not fully up to date either: http://www.sportsnet.gr/ ).As for European competitions it is by far the most successful Greek team in both most popular sports in Greece, football and basketball.So what exactly makes Olympiacos being referenced as "one of the largest multisport clubs in Europe" and Panathinaikos as a "major multisports club" which implies that the first one is bigger and more successful?I think there should be some kind of correction here.Some balancing, between the two sentences, which would correspond to reality.The clubs should also be listed alphabetically, since it's the most objective way.But i see that some people keep "forgeting" it, obviously because they just want to showcase their club as the best of all...Oh and by the way, we don't count "Doubles" as titles you smart..."Double" means you 've won both Championship and Cup in the same year.That doesn't make it a title by itself and that's an actual example of your malignant intentions...Whether that or you are not smart enough to understand that simple thing.Kind discussion by some, does not necessarily prove good intentions for objectivity by their side...It's just a cunning way of trying to convince people that are not perfectly acquainted with Greek clubs, that you are right...Besides, that's the only way you may be able to hide FACTS.But i'll be here to correct you in everything...—Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.72.127.138 (talk • contribs)

Since "you are going to be here to correct" things, please do sign your posts, so that we know who we are talking to. If you are that same guy that was forcing the sentence that PAO plays UCL, don't comlaint for hidden facts! Also don't complaint for 492 removal, I repeatidely asked for a reference with the "citation needed" sign, and instead of providing it, you were removing the sign! I have asked Avg sevaral times, and now I am asking you, which exactly of the figures that I showed with my "cunning way" to SirFozzio is not true (apart from the one I corrected myself)! The 10 out of 11 championships or the 69 vs 68 honors? "Doubles" were characterised as "honors", not separate "titles". "Doubles", you smart, show something statistically as well, don't they? What kind of rule is that "doubles" are statistically insignificant so that "we don't count them"? I would appreciate a reference to this rule. I would accept your rule as a rule of thumb by objective people. you don't seem like one of them to me! Apseven 11:05, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Dynamo

Dynamo from Berlin is no longer active and therefore it can't be the "best" club.Page Up 02:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

History of sports clubs

this article should contain a passage about the history of sports clubs. for example, the reader can't tell what is the oldest sports club, etc. 62.219.54.250 (talk) 12:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Merge

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To not merge, given the uncontested objection with stale discussion; WP:SILENCE. Klbrain (talk) 04:14, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

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So, I'm trying to figure out which parts of Sports team should be merged, if at all. I created that page without realizing this one already existed--Prisencolin (talk) 22:46, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

"Sports team" is about a "group of individuals who play sports". A "sports club" can have multiple sports teams of a specific sport or different sports. SLBedit (talk) 22:55, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

I agree that there can be multiple sports teams in sports club but that could easily be stated in a section of this article rather than an entire article. If there is further conversation to be had about a sports team then it can be made into a lone article but I think for now it makes sense to merge the articles. DannyHatcher (talk) 21:21, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm undecided, leaning oppose. No doubt there are substantial overlaps, but "Sports club" and "Sports team" are distinct topics; a team isn't necessarily part of a club, and a club doesn't necessarily have any teams. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 11:22, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.